Scott & Sarah Kennedy

Tuesday, May 24, 2005

Amusing Playground Incident

After the bell, at the drinking fountain.

Child 1: Hey you've got a lolly. You're not allowed lollies at school.
Child 2: It's not a lolly, it's a cough lolly.

posted by Scotty at 7:00 PM

19 Comments:

  • Classic!

    By Anonymous Lou, at 11:58 AM, May 25, 2005  

  • Here's an interesting quote which explains my thoughts on the Bible better than I ever could:

    "All that is necessary, as it seems to me, to convince any reasonable
    person that the Bible is simply and purely of human invention -- of
    barbarian invention -- is to read it. Read it as you would any other book;
    think of it as you would of any other; get the bandage of reverence from
    your eyes; drive from your heart the phantom of fear; push from the
    throne of your brain the coiled form of superstition -- then read the Holy
    Bible, and you will be amazed that you ever, for one moment, supposed a
    being of infinite wisdom, goodness and purity, to be the author of such
    ignorance and of such atrocity."
    -- Robert G. Ingersoll, "The Gods", 1872

    By Anonymous Damian, at 3:54 PM, May 26, 2005  

  • 2 things popped into my mind when I read that quote.

    1, Did he actually manage to read the whole thing or did he give up half way through the Old Testament books when he'd had enough? If he did then he missed a lot. And he'd loose his credibility to judge it's content.

    And 2, no it's not a regular fictional book. Read it as you would a history book. Not a novel. Remember the context in which it recorded such events. Things such as the culture of the day wheh Moses led the Isralites from Egypt, or the cultural beliefs involved in the accusing of Jesus breaking sabbath law by healing on the sabbath. If Mr. Ingersoll neglected these things in his reading of it then yes it would make it harder to understand.

    If he held those things in mind while reading it then he'd know what he was talking about. That quote gives me the impression he started reading it with the intent to mock it. Not to see if it were real history or otherwise.


    Feel free to give some examples you have issues with in the Bible. I'm always open for a bit of discussion on such things :-)

    By Anonymous Allan, at 7:15 PM, May 26, 2005  

  • Granted we don't know his state of mind, but the point you raise about remembering its cultural context, which is somewhat different from today's, highlights a crucial point made be Nato previously.

    If the bible is a historical document, from a context long ago, then it surely is out of context for today.

    So which is it? Was it accurate then (and needs translating now) or is it accurate now (in which case context is irrelevent to the quote)?

    By Anonymous Damian, at 9:15 PM, May 26, 2005  

  • Both :-)

    The Bible was written in context of the time of the writers. But it was also written for men in general reguardless of time. All men sin, all need some way of becoming righteous if they plan on heaven, all live in a sinful world. That doesn't change with time or changing culture.

    The purpose of the Bible is to explain sin, God (to an extent), righteousness and what God did to make us righteous with himself. Combine that with instructions on how we were designed to live (written by the designer) and you've got yourself a manual for every created human being on the planet reguardless of time.

    It goes deeper than that but I'm probably not the best person to be explaining it. It's not something I've studied enough obviously. Scott or Nato likely outclass me there. Maybe they'll write a bit :-)

    By Anonymous Allan, at 11:36 PM, May 26, 2005  

  • Hey Damian - are you an Aucklander? I would be keen on catching up with you to discuss these sort of things sometime.

    By Anonymous Scotty, at 7:25 AM, May 27, 2005  

  • Damian:

    "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flower of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,but the word of the Lord stands forever.
    1 Pet 1:24-25

    Short answer: Yes the Bible is very much applicable to today's life. Its principles and truths remain the same as they did years ago.

    Would you say things like the 10 Commandments are out of date today?
    Its what society has based its civil laws & morals on for years.

    Admittedly, there have been/are some weird translations of the Bible, but that doesnt make every translation wrong. Nor does it change the fact that through men, God wrote what he wanted written.

    By Anonymous Silla, at 11:32 AM, May 27, 2005  

  • Scott - no, i live in Australia now.

    Silla - "Yes the Bible is very much applicable to today's life. Its principles and truths remain the same as they did years ago."

    Here's the problem, Silla: Principles and truths are as fluid as a gentle stream, and as dynamic as a rushing river.

    I'd like to say some principles are absolute (e.g. murder is bad) but its just not true, neither in time nor space. Throughout history there are entire societies where murder was a way of life. Same with the other sins. Times change, ideas change.
    Even Christianity has changed (dare I say, evolved?) over time, as evidenced by your next comment:

    "Admittedly, there have been/are some weird translations of the Bible, but that doesnt make every translation wrong."

    It doesn't make every translation right either. Which one is the 'real' bible we're supposed to be following, then?
    Which one do you follow?
    Why are there even TRANSLATIONS, if every word is absolute truth, and the whole thing is in context?
    The problem with this concept is that you're trying to have your cake AND eat it.

    "Nor does it change the fact that through men, God wrote what he wanted written."

    And apparantly, he changed his mind along the way - kind of strange for an omniscient being, don't you think?
    Or, could it be (shudder), that men have made their own translations...?

    By Anonymous Damian, at 1:32 PM, May 27, 2005  

  • Throughout history there are entire societies where murder was a way of life.
    I'm interested. name some.

    What do you think society should be based on? Do you think all the other 9 commandments are out of date except for murder? I'd hate to live in world where everyone's left to their own choices on deciding what they believe is right and moral, making their own rules. Have u read Lord of the Flies? it would = total anarchy. Let me put the same question to you that my dad put to his "atheistic" (<-- no such thing as atheism btw) brother: would you be happy if someone murdered somone close to you, JUST because they felt like it? that there were no rules tellin them that it was wrong?
    What makes you think murder's bad? but not stealing? adultery?
    What things do you consider right and what do you base this on?

    It doesn't make every translation right either. Which one is the 'real' bible we're supposed to be following, then?
    Which one do you follow?
    Why are there even TRANSLATIONS, if every word is absolute truth, and the whole thing is in context?

    Um the reason there are translations of the Bible is because it was first written in Hebrew and Greek, not English, so it had to be translated into English for us English-speaking people to understand.
    The translation i usually read is NIV (new international version).
    The New King James Version is slightly more accurate than all others because it is a literal translation, which has been supported by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (oldest written document) and they match up.

    And apparantly, he changed his mind along the way - kind of strange for an omniscient being, don't you think?
    Where/when did God change his mind?
    God sees the big picture and everything that happens is according to what He has planned. He knew everything that was goin to happen before the beginning of time.

    Or, could it be (shudder), that men have made their own translations...?
    Yes your right, some groups such as the JWs (jehovah's witnesses) and Mormans and some Catholics have added or taken away from the Bible and made their own "bible" to fit what they want to believe (ie the JWs dont believe Jesus is God. they believe in two gods essentially - yet they continue to deny it) which is clearly stated as wrong in Rev 22:19 "If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

    The way we know these groups have inaccurate interpretations is b/c they dont match up with the Dead Sea Scrolls.


    Just outta interest, have you read the Bible much? and if so, did you try reading it like you do a novel?


    -Priscilla

    By Anonymous Silla, at 3:18 PM, May 27, 2005  

  • Yay for intelligent conversation without argument. Seems most can't do that now.
    While at first reading some scriptures appear to say God changed his mind, a deeper reading explains this conundrum.

    And example is in Romans where Paul says that the Jews are cut off from God's salvation. The Jews at that time made a big fuss over that statement. But a closer reading reveals phrases such as "for a time" which says that while they are cut of now, they will not be permantly cut off.

    Did God change his mind or did men jump the gun and conclude something totally wrong and inconsistant with the text?


    I'll let the atheism/evolution comments lie ;-) I've disproven them many times elsewhere, and I've already given the answersingenesis.org website for those interrested in detailing that topic.

    By Anonymous Allan, at 4:43 PM, May 27, 2005  

  • Well, this discussion has had its moments, but its really getting stale now.

    Silla, you've gone and jumped the gate and run off into the wilds. Whatever point you were making is lost in the confusing (and incorrect) conclusions you jumped to in reading my comment.

    "Throughout history there are entire societies where murder was a way of life.
    I'm interested. name some."

    Rome and its gleeful butchery in the arena. Sparta, where unhealthy babies were left out to die. The Aztecs, where hundreds of slaves and captives were executed to placate the Sun God. Surely, you've heard of these..? Closer to home, you have the Catholic crusades, the Quakers and their witch hunts, honour killings in India today, Israel's eye-for-an-eye fued with Palestine, .. the list goes on.

    Since quotes seem to be popular in Christian circles, here's one:

    "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19.27.

    Sounds nasty. Obey me or die. Of course, i'm sure there's a peaceful interpretation to this.

    "What do you think society should be based on? Do you think all the other 9 commandments are out of date except for murder?"
    ..And you go on and on for a whole paragraph about something you misunderstood.

    The subject was examples where the commandments are not followed. Murder is the worst sin (to me, at least) so I used it as the example.
    Somehow you seemed to think this condones the other sins. I could have stated that the other sins are bad too, but it seemed obvious.

    "It doesn't make every translation right either. Which one is the 'real' bible we're supposed to be following, then? Which one do you follow?
    Why are there even TRANSLATIONS, if every word is absolute truth, and the whole thing is in context?
    Um the reason there are translations of the Bible is because it was first written in Hebrew and Greek, not English, so it had to be translated into English for us English-speaking people to understand.
    The translation i usually read is NIV (new international version). The New King James Version is slightly more accurate than all others because it is a literal translation, which has been supported by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (oldest written document) and they match up."

    Thank you for re-iterating my point, although I'm sure it will be lost on everybody and i'm getting tired of explaining it.

    Its simply this:
    if the word of God is absolutely true, how can you even say that one version is more accurate than the other? There should be only one true version, and all the others are false. That's just simple logic.
    To admit that one version is more accurate is tantamount to saying they're both imperfect - which is contradictory to the central argument that the 'bible' is the word of God.
    To attribute any differences to man is tantamount to admitting that it is not divinely inspired - again contradictory.

    There's no trickery here, its just logic. You can't have your cake AND eat it. Either its divine, and perfect, or its not divine and flawed.

    By Anonymous Damian, at 6:56 PM, May 30, 2005  

  • I mostly agree with the comments about which version is perfect and which is not. That in itself is a long debate that quite frankly I'm out of my depth on.

    I would consider it possible that a modern version, the NIV for example, might also be considered a translation - from old english to modern.

    That said, my personal preferance is to read the old english KJV.

    By Anonymous Allan, at 8:25 PM, May 30, 2005  

  • This, btw, is the same topic my father seems to have messed up. The authority of Scripture vs versions. So any long winded answer will be helpfull.

    By Anonymous Allan, at 8:38 PM, May 30, 2005  

  • My initial answer on the translations issues:-

    1. The original Greek manuscripts of each book (and Hebrew for OT) contained the correct and original intent.
    2. Subsequent copying by scribes has not made massive differences to the original. (Although there are some small issues, which generally do not change meaning).
    3. Our versions are only translations working with the best Greek and Hebrew texts we have preserved.
    4. In my studies so far, although I have been surprised at some of the problems I didn't know about, on the whole, I have found that the Scriptures have been preserved, and our translations fairly accurate.

    Other issues
    1. In any language translation, you will find you can translate things slightly differently.
    II Tim 2:3 "KJV Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ."

    ASV "Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus."
    The meaning and intent is the same, but the wording is different.

    2. English is a language that is evolving. We saw this in our discussion over the word fear. So some translation like the KJV captured the meaning of the original texts well in 1600's, but now is not so helpful as something like the NASB.

    By Anonymous Scotty, at 8:13 AM, May 31, 2005  

  • Re: Bible Translation

    A simple point: Since God inspired the work of His chosen writers who produced the original Greek and Hebrew texts, there is absolutely no reason why He cannot be just as effective in the work of those who translate His Word to other languages.

    By Anonymous Dan, at 4:01 PM, May 31, 2005  

  • Damian: just a reminder that you were the one who posted that thing on someone's perspective of what the bible is (and in a topic that had no relation to it...)

    Why did u identify murder as the worst of the 10 commandments anyway? they're all as bad as each other.

    Many non-christians take verses like u have out of the Bible and take them out of context. Its like the verse 'Eat, drink and be merry....' that is so often taken by non-Christians as an excuse to indulge themselves in whatever they feel like doing. When its not saying that at all, if you look at the context its in.

    Anyway 'nuff said, i think ive just about wasted enuff time on this topic...

    By Anonymous Silla, at 4:29 PM, May 31, 2005  

  • Silla - Why did u identify murder as the worst of the 10 commandments anyway? they're all as bad as each other.

    Ouch. Interesting perspective. Personally, i'd rather my kids were robbed, than killed - but you might feel differently.

    Anyway 'nuff said, i think ive just about wasted enuff time on this topic...

    Agreed. No more from me.

    By Anonymous Damian, at 4:37 PM, May 31, 2005  

  • Sry, one more thing - just to clarify that point i made about murder being as bad as the others...what i actually meant is that in Gods eyes sin is sin, no sin is any worse than the other, hard as it is for us mere (sinful) humans to comprehend.

    By Anonymous Silla, at 7:43 PM, May 31, 2005  

  • ha
    and i was expecting 18 comments on cough lollies.
    he he he.

    By Anonymous Alana, at 12:41 PM, June 02, 2005  

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